J_K9 @ Linux

100% Free Distributions: Will They Get Linux Anywhere?

November 11, 2006 on 4:15 pm | In Linux |

‘Completely free’ distributions spring up every once in a while, and they tend to get a substantial amount of coverage from the Linux press. The last one to be added to the FSF’s ever-growing list of free distributions is GNewSense, which is Ubuntu stripped of its proprietary software and given a (bad) makeover. As one might expect, it has received the usual spike of popularity: NewsForge, LWN, etc.

While I admire the efforts of the GNewSense team, I can’t help but wonder why they are wasting their time on this when that time could be much better spent improving a distribution that is actually going somewhere, like Ubuntu.

Linux has entered the enterprise strongly, and is slowly gaining more and more of the workstation and server markets. However, in order to be a big hit, Linux has to win over the hoi polloi, the average desktop owner who uses their computer to browse the internet, check their email, process word documents and spreadsheets and possibly listen to music. At the very least, Linux has to gain more widespread usage in the enterprise workstation market, as it might enter the desktop market via that route.

What’s wrong with GNewSense? There’s nothing wrong with it, per se - there’s just nothing that would attract a home or office user to use it over Windows or OS X. The average PC user wants their machine to “just work” with minimum hassle and with as few visits to the local PC repair shop as possible. A critical and crucial part of this is hardware recognition - if they cannot connect to the home wireless network that the man from BT kindly set up for them from their computer because the operating system does not support their wireless NIC, are they going to be pleased? Not at all. They’re going to give the PC repair guy a ring and ask him to come over to fix the computer, who will probably (over)charge them £300 for a copy of Windows XP Home and the time taken to install it.

If GNewSense, or any other Linux distribution for that matter, does not work with a home user’s wireless card, then they’re not going to install it on their computer. If it doesn’t work with another piece of hardware, they’re not going to install it: they’ll stick with Windows, which at least works. While I understand that there are some hardware manufacturers who refuse to make Linux drivers or release enough details for FOSS drivers to be made for their hardware, there are some hardware manufacturers which do take the time to make Linux drivers for their hardware, just to keep us happy. No, those drivers are not always Open Source, but they’re drivers nonetheless and GNewSense gets rid of anything that isn’t Open Source when there aren’t FOSS alternatives. This, in my humble opinion, is a ridiculous and stupid idea. Yes, it might be “politically good,” but, as far as I know, the only people fanatical about this are some Linux zealots. Where we have the choice of Open Source software or proprietary software it is just to choose FOSS over closed software (although there are cases when a proprietary driver or application is more advanced and the benefits of using it outweigh those of using the FOSS alternative), but getting rid of proprietary software when there is no alternative (as GNewSense has done) is moving a step away from Linux desktop adoption, not towards.

When will we learn? I am all for FOSS and I do believe that Linux distributions should be comprised mostly of FOSS, but if usability is going to be sacrificed to such an extent in making a distribution completely FOSS that it becomes unusable then it’s just not worth it, especially if proprietary drivers with no FOSS alternatives are being scrapped. Enterprises aren’t going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds changing their hardware just so that their systems will work with Linux, so the obvious solution is for us to make Linux work with their hardware, which will only happen if we embrace the help that hardware manufacturers are giving us.

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So, another article “$1 doesn’t fit _my_ needs, it doesn’t do what _I_ want it to do, therefore it’s the Ultimate Bad Thing(tm)”?

You should realize, that “Linux on every desktop” is _not_ the goal of all distros. In fact, the goals of most distros are far from it. The goal of GNewSense is also different. It’s just “complete freedom”.

As you well pointed out, this distro is not going to attract people who prefer usability over freedom. But this distro is _not_ meant for them. Obviously. It’s meant for those who value freedom. Yes, these might be just “zealots”, but even then - so be it.

You and anyone else can choose. Nobody makes you use GNewSense if you don’t agree with their goal. You can use different distro or not use Linux at all. Let people choose. And let some other people have that what you personaly don’t like. Live and let live.

Comment by Shadow — November 11, 2006 #
Using Mozilla 1.7.12 on Debian GNU/Linux
If u go to the Web site, it clearly states everything. And the Web site isnt attractive enough that average Jo would so seduced that all of a sudden he’ll be too eager to dump his Windoze to check gNewSense out. It’s certainly aimed for some of us who’d rather have something free. The press coverage u happen to mention also mention the project’s choice of freedom over convenience.

Comment by madcap — November 12, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 1.5.0.8 on Linux
I have written about #1 here:
http://www.osnews.com/story.php/16284/A-Call-to-Distros-Give-Users-What-They-Want

and here is the answer I got from a Fedora kernel developer (scroll down to the discussion):
http://kernelslacker.livejournal.com/62413.html

They just don’t get it.

Comment by Eugenia — November 12, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Windows XP
[…] Just tonight, while browsing Digg, I found two separate recent blog posts of users (here and here) discussing exactly that problem: the difficulty of installing must-have proprietary software (e.g. Flash). […]

Pingback by Eugenia’s rants and thoughts :: Regarding proprietary software on distros :: November :: 2006 — November 12, 2006 #
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Shadow: That’s not my point and these aren’t ‘my needs,’ they’re the needs of the majority of computer users and if we cannot cater for them then we’re not going to get anywhere. I know what their goal is and, as I’ve already said, I appreciate what they’re doing, but when you get comments like this in articles about the distro:

“However, gNewSense is also an important step toward its long-range goal of persuading manufacturers to produce computers that run completely free software, from the operating system and drivers down to the BIOS.”

And you know that this is never going to work (and if it does it will take *years*).. I just think that their talents could be much more useful in helping Linux be brought into the mainstream than creating another distribution, another completely free distribution, which will be used by a very small sector of the Linux market.

Linux is all about choice, which I believe to be one of its greatest advantages (and disadvantages), but what is this distribution going to do? Make a handful of people happy and proud of using a completely free OS? I have no problem with that… I just think that the talent is being wasted.

Eugenia: Precisely. To quote kernelslacker:

I feel it should be harder for proprietary drivers to actually exist at all.

In that case, make the FOSS drivers good enough so that I don’t HAVE to use them. For instance: I installed Ubuntu Edgy a couple of weeks ago and its GUI didn’t work. So, to fix it, I booted up a live CD, chrooted into Ubuntu’s partition, downloaded and installed the proprietary ATi driver, rebooted and took out the live CD. When I booted into Ubuntu, the GUI *worked perfectly* and it was at my screen’s native resolution.
I would much rather use a FOSS driver than a proprietary driver, but if the FOSS driver just doesn’t work am I expected not to go for the proprietary alternative?

I completely agree with your article. I also think that there should be an option to download proprietary software during the installation (with all the legal notices, etc) as well as in the way you mentioned, because I couldn’t actually install Ubuntu using the standard install CD because the GUI didn’t work. How many other Linux users, especially people trying Linux out for the first time, are going to do what I did to get their GUI working?

Comment by J_K9 — November 12, 2006 #
Using Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows XP
I concur. By all means, use FOSS, and support hardware vendors that make their specs accessable for FOSS devlopers, but it has to work. There’s no use saying how great all the spinny cubes of Compiz are if you can’t even see a 2D screen in the first place.

Comment by Gunny — November 12, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Windows XP
Instead of bashing the hard work of someone else who is at least contributing to the Linux world. Why don’t you contribute something useful. For one thing I think you’ve missed the greatest thing about the gNewSense project. They have made available the source of their builder scripts so that you can Create Your Own Distro based on Ubuntu. Them making certain that all of their packages are truely free will make it much easier for anyone wanting to create a custom distro and repos without worrying about proprietary software in binary form mucking up their idea and violating GPL read here for an example. http://kororaa.org/static.php?page=gpl

The fact is most distros want to give users what they want, but turning your back on the ideas of the FSF, GNU, and the GPL that got us here is a big mistake.

Comment by an10ae — November 14, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Mac OS X
If one wants common functionality the non free stuff is a fact of life. It would be interesting to know how many Linux users stick with the free bundles, and how many choose to install flash, java (which will soon be gpl’d), 3-d acceleration and so forth.

Comment by michael — November 14, 2006 #
Using Konqueror 3.5 on Linux
All those people claiming that binary blobs are “essential” to get a good user experience are rather missing the point of free, as in libré, software.

As soon as you have even one binary blob in the system you make the system un-auditable, and partly un-modifiable, by a third parties. Binaries can hold a multitude of sins, both deliberate and accidental. As an end user you may think that doesn’t matter much but for many people who contribute to free software it matters. A lot.

If the original creators of linux, gnu etc. had had your point of view they would’ve continued to use the closed alternatives available and not wasted time on creating something new. Thankfully for you they decided to “waste” their time.

That attitude continues to this day. I hope they will continue to push the boundaries and continue to give closed source software, whereever it affects them, a hard time. They are thinking long term here and just like when linux, gnu etc. were getting started sometimes short term pain is required for long term gain. Allowing binary blobs to become routine is a short term fix that obviates the point of having free, as in libré, software.

Anyway, I don’t know what people here are worried about. Unlike closed source desktop OS’ there’s a viable free market in open source desktop OS’ and people will make their own choices, whether closed or open, and the best will hopefully grow.

Comment by Traveller — November 14, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Ubuntu Linux
an10ae: I do appreciate all their hard work, but the distro itself (GNewSense) is suited to a small and specific niche of the market. The reason I do not contribute anything is that I’m not a skilled enough programmer - these two, however, are extremely skilled, and I think those skills could be put to better use. I would be overjoyed if graphics card manufacturers released their drivers under an Open Source licence, but they (ATi and nVidia) have not done so because they claim that they contain code which could reveal some of their cards’ secrets to competitors. Yes, I do know that these drivers violate the GPL, but if using them is the only way to get X working for a few people with odd cards like me then what am I expected to do?

My point is that we have reached a dilemma which we have to resolve. The Open Source graphics drivers (nv and radeon) simply cannot keep up with the proprietary ones (nvidia and radeon), as articles like the Phoronix comparison show. We need to either put more pressure on the graphics card manufacturers to open source their drivers or to somehow keep up with the latest technologies in the FOSS graphics drivers (which I doubt will ever happen because I believe a certain amount of documentation trawling and reverse engineering is required). I want GNU/Linux to be a completely free OS, but it needs to be on a par with or surpass Mac OS X and Windows Vista in innovation in order to continue making progress in the enterprise arena.

Believe me - if I could help, I would.

Traveller: It’s not fair to compare the conception of an operating system at a time when there weren’t that many in the market (several, but not that many) to that of a single distribution when there are well over a hundred others out there. As you said, binary blobs are a “short term fix,” and that is all I want them to be - but we need to think of a long term solution to this problem, because I can see Linux playing catch-up for the rest of its existence if not.

Comment by J_K9 — November 14, 2006 #
Using Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows XP
You state that you are unlikely to influence hardware manufacturers to assist in producing free drivers. This may be true, but there is at least a nonzero chance. There is zero chance that you are going to influence the FSF to support or tolerate non-free software.

If your article was instead intended to change what the gNewSense developers are doing, you would be wise to learn their motives first. Knowing nothing about them, it could be possible that they are willing to work toward the goal of a Linux-based system with the greatest functionality, regardless of whether the software is free or not. I’m doubtful of this, but it’s always possible. You could probably accomplish this best by personal, direct communication rather than public postings.

Please note that you do not need to be a programmer to help! You clearly have writing skills; documentation is always badly needed. Or get involved in answering questions on forums. Become active in a local user group (or start one!). Artwork contributions are needed as well. Don’t sell yourself short on what you can do.

Comment by Vance — November 14, 2006 #
Using Lynx 2.8.4rel.1
[…] Недавно наткнулся на статью, критикующую gNewSense, в блоге J_K9: 100% Free Distributions: Will They Get Linux Anywhere? […]

Pingback by О gNewSense и Ubuntu, и офисных лузерах « Fire_ant personal blog — November 14, 2006 #
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an10ae…

Your comment totally misses the point of this article. There are no backs being turned on FSF, GNU, or GPL.

I disagree with you when you defend their “hard work”, unless you count stripping something and ‘downgrading’ it as hard work. There are already many distros out there that don’t use proprietary files, and this is yet another one…when efforts could have been combined.

That’s one of Linux’s downfalls. Have many distros is a good thing, competition and invention, but that’s between say 20 or 20. Having 400 versions that are all different by a GCC version or GIMP version is just a waste of the community. Working together needs to happen instead of forking off another distro!

Comment by nathbeadle — November 14, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Windows XP
Hi Vance,

That is not what I said What I said was:

We need to either put more pressure on the graphics card manufacturers to open source their drivers

I think we all need to work together to put more pressure on graphics card manufacturers - no, on ALL hardware manufacturers who release binary drivers - to release them under an Open Source licence so that Linux can move on at a faster pace. At the moment, Linux development is being hindered by proprietary drivers, but they’re all we’ve currently got… It’s either them or the open source graphics drivers written by the community, which do not perform anywhere near as well as the proprietary drivers and lack the more advanced functionality offered by their non-free alternatives.

What you said is true, but I doubt they are willing to include proprietary drivers or software if they’re developing a completely free distribution The way I see it, the onus is on nVidia and ATi.. They’re the ones who are controlling Linux’s future as a desktop OS - that’s how I see it, anyway.

And I know that I can contribute in other ways, but I do not really have the time… Over the holidays I shall try to help a project out with their documentation, and get back into posting on LQ (I have helped a good number of people on there). Anyway, if you know of any specific projects which you think I could help, please let me know

Comment by J_K9 — November 15, 2006 #
Using Internet Explorer 7.0 on Windows XP
I’m just not getting this.
Ok, so you spend all your hard earned cash building your own custom system with an awesome Nvidia/Ati video card.
1.) You install windows and guess what no accelerated 3D. You have to then install a closed source binary driver from Nvidia or Ati.
1.) You install Linux and guess what no accelerated 3D. You have to then install a closed source binary driver from Nvidia or Ati.
What’s the difference and what’s the big deal?

Do you think Linux should work out of the box on every type of hardware that exists?

If you want everything to work 100% of the time out of the box buy a Mac. They control the software and the hardware.

If you like diversity and the ability to build your own software stack choose Linux.

If you want nag screens, AV, software firewalls, and ridiculous licensing fees choose windows.

The fact is Linux supports out of the box more hardware than any other operating system ever.
Third party proprietary software will always have to be downloaded and installed no matter what.

Even on my mac I had to download and install the flash plug-in. On windows you have to download and install drivers, java, flash.

This is a ridiculous argument and a ridiculous article.

Comment by an10ae — November 16, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Mac OS X
Yeah, but everyone writes windows drivers

Comment by Gunny — November 16, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Windows XP
Cray doesn’t write drivers for their hardware for windows neither does SGI, Sun, or Apple (this last one is changing though with boot-camp and leopard releases).

Nvidia makes drivers for linux, windows, and OSX.
Ati makes drivers for linux, windows, and OSX.
and every intel video card is supported in the kernel.

As far as I know, there is very little hardware in the world that Linux doesn’t support.
exceptions being:
some crappy on board wi-fi cards. ( in which case using NDIS wrapper you can use the windows driver on linux)
some crappy All-in-One Printers (these things suck no matter what OS you’re running)
and in both of these areas support is dramatically improving.

I guess my main problem with this article is,
Why are you singling out one small group of people making a project that they wanted to make? Your “problems” with Linux are just that with Linux, why single out gNewSense? There are thousands upon thousands of open-source developers and projects out there. If you think something needs to happen get involved. You don’t have to know how to program, but maybe you should learn. You can easily contribute bug reports, artwork, ideas to any number of projects. It seems to me that alot of people are turning on to linux these days and they are excited about it and that’s great, but just because it isn’t what you want it to be does not give you the right to attack someone for doing their part

nathbeadle.
I don’t think I missed the point at all. The article is calling out to distros to include closed-source proprietary software out of the box.
That flies directly in the face of the GNU philosophy.

And yes I think building an entire set of scripts that allow you to create your own distribution complete with repositories and mirrors is very tedious work. Stripping out all of the proprietary code and recompiling a kernel maybe not that hard, but useful nonetheless.

No one has done this with Ubuntu before. I like Ubuntu and their packaging systems and I have found their tree to be far more up to date and reliable than Debians over the past 2-3 years. So this project sounds great to me I may even use it myself to make some custom cd images and repos for my own use as I haven’t been all that happy lately with edgy.

Comment by an10ae — November 16, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Mac OS X
I singled out gNewSense because it’s the latest thing in the news and served as an example. My arguments do not just apply to its developers, but to developers of all similar distributions or software. We should have at least one completely free distribution just so that the element of choice remains, but there’s no need to have six (or however many there are) - the developers’ talents could be put to better use IMHO.

The article is calling out to distros to include closed-source proprietary software out of the box.

That’s where you’re wrong. This article is calling out to distros to improve the user experience by making the OS work out of the box and NOT leave it up to the user to type in a variety of commands which they’ve had to spend an hour looking for on the internet. Remember that while you or I might be able to install the graphics drivers, configure alsa, screen resolution and the rest in a few minutes, it is going to take a *complete newbie* FAR longer, and it’s things like this that are hindering the widespread adoption of Linux.

Yes, Linux supports an incredible amount of architectures and more hardware than proprietary OSs like XP or OS X, but it doesn’t support the “latest and greatest” in many cases, whereas Windows and OS X do because the device usually brings drivers for these two OSs. When Linux becomes more popular I’m sure that a Linux driver will also be included - but Linux has to become more popular before that can happen, and its progress is being hindered.

What I want is for distros to give the user the best experience possible, as that is what is going to attract new users and make sure that most of them keep using Linux. This has nothing to do with technology - it’s a simple business principle. Keep ‘them’ (the public) happy, and they’ll keep coming back. Make them install third party graphics drivers to get X working at their native resolution and enable 3D effects and the majority of them will just shake their heads and never return. Every user counts, and we’re losing them one by one because of this.

Do you understand my point? What the hell, I’ll quote myself in case you still don’t understand my argument:

I think we all need to work together to put more pressure on graphics card manufacturers - no, on ALL hardware manufacturers who release binary drivers - to release them under an Open Source licence so that Linux can move on at a faster pace. At the moment, Linux development is being hindered by proprietary drivers, but they’re all we’ve currently got… It’s either them or the open source graphics drivers written by the community, which do not perform anywhere near as well as the proprietary drivers and lack the more advanced functionality offered by their non-free alternatives.

In other words, let’s work together to convince hardware manufacturers to release their drivers under an Open Source licence so that they can be distributed WITH the OS and make the user experience much more satisfying and much easier to obtain.

[edit] Speak of the devil: looks like I might give Linux Mint a go

Comment by J_K9 — November 16, 2006 #
Using Internet Explorer 6.0 on Windows XP
[…] There are problems with this, such as the possibility of a violation of the GPL and the general immorality of using closed source drivers in an open source OS, as well as a host of practicality issues such as “the simple technical problems that support for the drivers is completely dependent on the hardware vendor.” However, this is a huge leap forward for Linux (in my eyes): I do not like closed source drivers, but I do recognise the fact that they are the only good solutions we have at the moment and so they are fine as a short-term improvement to the situation. As I expressed in my previous post on this topic, there are many graphics, sound and wireless drivers which are closed source but without which the OS is too impractical to use as either a home or office OS. […]

Pingback by J_K9 @ Linux » Alleluya! Ubuntu To Include Extra Drivers — November 19, 2006 #
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The author makes some good points but… I’ve been off and on Linux for a while. I love it’s philosophy and flexibility. I hate spending time compiling and configuring. A little configuring here and there, no big deal. With that said, I am happy for the versions of Linux. It is a mixed blessing. True, it makes it harder for linux in general to be adopted. It is also the reason it is being welcomed. Not every version fits everyone’s need. The great thing is that because there are many versions, chances are there is that one distro that just works. Sure, it takes some time to find it but what do you expect…its free!

I have some older laptops I just don’t want to give up. My IBM 600E works as well as the day I got it years ago. I just can’t run win2k or above on it. The performance is horrible. I guess I can run win9x but the number of crashes and driver issues simply piss me off. I can’t run many versions of Linux for that matter. I loved the performance of DSL or Puppy on this thing. DSL simply worked out of the box even for my old old, cisco 4800 wifi. Fluxbox isn’t bad but it isn’t great and it is not very aesthetically pleasing. Its a sacrifice for performance. Puppy and wifi don’t get along very well and I don’t have the patience to get it to work. Why should I with the number of distros out there that does it for me? Distros that use KDE and GNOME took too much resources. I found most slackware based distros to work the fastest. Particularly, Vector 5.8b. It worked out of the box. I get to use XFCE which has a great desktop a bit gnome-esque in my eye but with great performance. It is a nice compromise between performance, aesthetics and utility. I get to use modern software and I don’t have to use win9x. All in all, I’m glad they branched out from slackware to make a distro that does what I need as I’m sure someone is happy this distro in your article is doing what they need.

Comment by bluenevus — December 13, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Linux
Ah, but in this case the distro in question is a stripped-down version of Ubuntu which is actually less usable than Ubuntu itself. Whatever box this works on I can almost guarantee that Ubuntu will work on just as well if not better (unless the GNewSense team have made some changes since my last visit to their website).

I’m not discouraging or demeaning the diversity of Linux and its countless distributions - I’m just wondering why these developers, although doing something respectable, are modifying an existing distribution to produce a less functional but more Richard Stallman-esque distro.

Comment by J_K9 — December 14, 2006 #
Using Mozilla Firefox 2.0 on Ubuntu Linux
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